AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Handgun = Glock 23

Shotgun = Mossberg 500

...and now I am looking for a riffle. I am leaning toward an AR10 or AR15. Does anyone have any manufacturers(I have been looking at Armalite) that they would reccomend or any that I should stay away from.

Also how much is the cost difference(rough %) for ammo between the two.

Also open to other suggestions.

Thanks

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

First two choices are excellent.

If you don't mind a question, WHY the AR?

For the price of EITHER of these weapons, regardless where you go, you can purchase TWO AK's.

I would prefer an AK over an AR15 any day of the week. The AR10, OK, good choice. But expensive. As are MOST .308 battle rifles.

Though you could always go with a different caliber, I feel .30 is minimum for any battle rifle. And the AR10 WILL have problems if not kept fairly clean. And parts for the AR10 ARE not cheap. Minimum would be extra bolt assembly including firing pin. It's a well designed weapon in a good caliber. But it's just not been proven in battle NEARLY as long as the AK. And magazines for the AK are much cheaper than for the AR10.

The AK has been a proven design for more than forty years. And they ARE about as small a caliber as I would be willing to go.

Get ONE AK and then ONE bolt action .308 if you JUST GOTTA HAVE the .308 so you won't burn up your .308 ammo as quickly. Prices for both ammo are similar, BUT you can find 7.62x39 a little cheaper if you look. Not by much, but a little.

And a MINIMUM amount of ammo for ANY weapon is 1000 rounds. I personally like to keep 2000 rounds per weapon. But hey, I'm anal that way.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

[quote=wallew]First two choices are excellent.

If you don't mind a question, WHY the AR?

For the price of EITHER of these weapons, regardless where you go, you can purchase TWO AK's.
quote]

Good point, my guess is because I am unfamiliar with AK's

My grandfather has an AR15 that I have fired a few times before and liked. I've never actually even seen or fired an AK for real. The AK's are definitely less expensive. I will look into it because it is a significant cost savings.

Any other reasons for the AK over the AR besides cost and longer reputation?

Over 1000 rounds for the .40 cal(love this sidearm) but only about 300 for the 12 ga. I still need to do some stocking up.

Thanks for the advice BTW.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Great answer.
The AR-10 is for those that have more money than brains.Stick to a Bolt gun in .308 if you decide you are going to need one.
A remington 700 psl would be the good economical choice for a stand off rifle.The rifle would be the basic platform,and is only as good as the optics you put on it.if you spend $100.00 on optics,you get a rifle that performs in this range.....
As far as intermediate rifles go,
The AK in 5.45 or 7.62X39 are great choices. ammo is affordable and the weapons are very user friendly and almost indestructable.
Very cost effective also.
The AR15 is also a good choice ,specifically if you were in the U.S. military,then you already know the problems you can run into and how to mitigate them to have a great functioning weapon.
It really boils down to what weapon you are comfortable with,and how extensive your accessory requirement will be.
Your hand gun and shot gun takes care of threats from 10 feet to 60 yards,your intermediate rifle will take care of threats to 200 yards,with practice in reality,and if you choose a stand off weapon like a .308,threats out to 500 yards can be defeated with minimal training.Now these weapons are capable of a much farther effective combat range,but you are not a soldier with marksman training,so effective combat range will not be achieved on weekends and spare time unless you continually train and practice.
Purchase what you are comfortable using,and what you feel you can pass on to the others around you when you feel you completely understand them yourself.
Your training of your spouse and other family members will be much more effective when you approach it in this manner.
Look at it this way,an M1A tank is capable of hitting a moving target with its main gun,a mile away,while the M1A is moving across the battle field at 50 MPH.
But just because you were able to buy an M1A tank,does not mean you will be able to accomplish this feat.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

All very good points.

I might suggest a Remington 700 BDL heavy barrel. USED if you can find one. With a 3-9 variable power scope. A good one rather than a cheap one. I spent as much on my optics as I did on my rifle. Twenty five years ago. And neither was cheap then. A harris folding bipod is always a good addition as is a sturdy leather sling.

I have always considered mine as my meat gathering tool. If there is a threat that's 500 yards out (1500 ft), that's a little less than a third of a mile. I ain't gonna waste ammo on that shot.

Besides, unless you are the ONLY house/person around besides the ONE person 500 yards out, do you really want to expose yourself as being able to reach out and touch someone at that range? I don't.

I'd rather lay low and hope that the threat just keeps on moving. Or let the threat come in a little closer, where my semi auto AK's can 'handle' the problem.

And the pistol and shotgun are also great, but you NEVER want to LET a threat get close enough for you to need them. OK, in a surprise situation, fine.

But if you have ALLOWED a predator to get close enough to use either of these tools, you are in deep ... well you know.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I'd go with a HK G3 (Civie version the HK91 or it's much less expensive -just as good- knockoff by Century) if you want a .308 MBR. FAL would be #2 for a .308

The AR10 is a fine platform, but you're putting AR problems into a .308 rifle. I wouldn't want the potential problems associated with it. Please note the use of 'potential'.

AR15, I love my bushmaster (only brand of AR's I'd personally buy). Just know the strength and weakness of the round.

AK's, gotta lvoe them, cheap and super reliable. Accuracy is good enough for a MBR, lets face it, you don't buy any MBR to shoot sub-MOA groups. If you want the light weight of the .223 round and low recoil, then get a AK74 (5.45x39).

I'd suggest you find someone in your area that has one of each to go shooting with, pick up the ammo tab and you'll have your answer.

As to bolt guns, get yourself a decent battle rifle first. If you need to lay down any volume of fire a bolt gun just can't get the job done. Any of the rifles I reccomened will do the job out to 300 yards (if not more for the AR, G3 and FAL) with ease. Bolt guns can wait.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

If you do go with an AR I recommend you look at Rock River. You get guaranteed accurcay and the tightest fitting uppers and lowers I have seen. www.adco or www.rbprecision (I have ordered from both) you will pay less than equivalent DPMS Bushmaster Olympic etc, and for my money a better rifle with a MUCH better trigger. As long as you are not in VA or IL you will not have to pay sales tax.

My last RRA was guaranteed to shoot 3/4 MOA- It shoots closer to 1/4. It will reach out 350 yards on prairie dogs better than 50 percent. Past that the 223 runs out of gas (unless you go heavy)

Ditto the other guys comments on AKs and a 308 bolt. I have Century G3 and it will throw out the brass but will barely keep them on a 8-inch bull at 100.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I'd go with the AR15 (5.56). The only cheap ak's out their are the Romanians
and I here they are pretty rough even for an AK.
Wolf is going to import a Brass cased 75 grain round that is suppose to be taylor made for 1/9 twist barrels. Hopefully this ammo is good and that will help in the stopping power dept. So a 1/9 twist 16" m-4 barrel profile .Nato
5.56 chamber. Chrome lined bore & chamber. Go to the Maryland AR15 shooters web page and get the instruction for the improved battle sight zero.(By Lt Colonel Chuck Santose) Sight in according to those instructions using Winchester Q3131, Q3131A, Federal M193 (all 55 grain bullet weights) or Federal 855 (62 grain bullet weights)( the m193 55 grain & M855 62 grain have the same trajectory more or less out to 300 meters) this will give you a 200 meter battle sight zero where the bullet is only 2" below or above the line of site from 0 meters out to 250 meters. When you get the 75 grain ammo run your own tests to see where you're hitting at 50, 100, and 200 meters and how many clicks up at 200 meters you need to move your rear site to hit your point of Aim. I am trying to learn more about ballistics myself and will post my findings on the 75 grain Wolf Ammo after I have had a chance to test it.
Just my .02. Bushmaster, Armalite, Rock River? Rifles seem to be good.
In .30 cal. PTR91 G3 clone, Fal, M1A.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I like just about all of Prometheus reply - so I'll just say ditto.

You really need to determine which caliber meets your needs.

They are similar but somewhat different -

More recoil in .308, better trajectory,better ballistics overall, definitly more "hitting/stopping" power, better ability to penetrate. More likely to penetrate body armor, usually heavier rifle

5.56 (.223) easier/softer shooting, easier sustained fast fire - shorter, lighter, good for up to deer sized game - wide variety of top ends and accessories available -lighter than a larger caliber

While I haven't been keeping up - IIRC, from what I have seen posted various places - the US Army is considering going to 6.8 MM round which will likely be the best of both worlds - I suspect that when/if that becomes the standard it will remain for a long, long time

Apparantly the troops in IRAQ have had a number of .308s (7.62mm NATO) hauled out of storage because they need the penetration in various circumstances.

Will there be a wife? or female firing this weapon? 5.56 will probably be more user friendly to a female novice.

Personally, I would go with the .308. I own an HK .308, and also own AR15 HBAR, along with others - I generally figure the .308 for me and the 5.56 for my diminuitive wife - who is an excellent shot

.308 would likely be more versatile in a SHTF scenario, IMHO

What you want is what _you_ can shoot the most _accurately._

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Ouch, somethings wrong with it or the ammo you are using. I own two and basically everyone I know owns atleast one. Both of mine will shoot MOA with match ammo at 100 yards with optics.

Even with iron sights I was hitting the 6" gong at 300 yards 20 for 20 shots. Definately find out what the problem is and get it fixed. The century guns should shoot 2-3" at 100 yards with standard milspec ammo.
Very rough in finish on alot of them, but function wise they are just as good as any other 16" AK around. Most of my AK's are SAR's (romainian) and while some look like they were thrown under a truck when I bought them (brand new) they all run 100%.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Bushmaster canceled their 308 "AR" project.
I'd go with the 5.56 between these two choices

Firearms are a personal choice though. Go with your gut.
A lot of times this type question is like walking into a country bar and asking 6 guys who makes the best pickup truck...

Good luck

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Unit cost shouldn't be a deciding factor. A good fighting rifle is one of those critical purchases, not a place to be pinching pennies, not that you want to waste money either, but you know what I'm saying. The words "cheap" and "AK" don't even belong together. The difference in quality between a cheap AK like a WASR and a good AK like a Vepr or milled Arsenal is night and day. The SAR-1 was a better rifle than the WASR. This difference is seen in everything from fit to finish to dependability, working life and accuracy. As a general rule, avoid anything Hesse or Vulcan or Century made or modified unless you know exactly what you are doing.

*shudders* I had the M-16A2 inflicted on me and it left me with such a bitter resentment I won't willingly choose an example of that platform as my rifle, there's just way too many better weapons out there. That said, if I had an AR-15 I would want it to be a Bushmaster. The AR isn't built to readily accept a folding stock and by the time you get done building one that can you may as well have bought a better weapon, so I'd forego the tacticool short barrels and telescoping stocks understanding that it just isn't a compact weapon and instead focus on the two things it as going for it; accuracy and the frag effect of 5.56x45.

You should examine your environment to determine which caliber makes the most sense. Where I am there is always a lot of cover and concealment, which .30cals cope with better than the 5.56/5.45, however there are few open areas so the extra weight of a fullhouse .30cal is a burden without much advantage. 7.62x39 makes sense down here. If I lived in open country I'd want something else. If I had to carry lots of ammo and travel on foot I'd want one of the tactical mouseguns.

As far as AK's go, like I said, cheap doesn't factor in unless you're just poor. Reasons why you would want one have less to do with longer reputation and more to do with the hard fact that the weapon simply is a no apologies required durable and dependable piece of machinery that as a long service life and will continue to function under conditions that bring lesser rifles to their knees. For instance, a 7.62x39 AK can be fired immediately after being removed from being submerged under water. You can't do this with the smallbore poodleshooters, nor the faster .30cals. AK's can be plenty accurate, if that's your game then buy a Vepr. AK's are also inherently better suited by design to be compact weapons, it is very simple to attack a true folding stock to one and they perform well with their 16" barrels. You won't break an AK using it as a warclub and you don't have to keep it meticulously clean all the time, it isn't a sissy rifle. The AK's parts are few and very large, they are not prone to loss or beakage and all moving parts can be easily replaced with no tools. The AK magazine is likely the most common, most durable and most reliable feeding device on the planet. AK variants are available in just about any caliber you'd want to shoot so you can easily build a family of weapons that all share a similar manual of arms and some interchangeable parts. They also have a lot of aftermarket support, second only to AR's and not by much so you can build out your AK into an efficient custom battle implement without much difficult.

The bottom line is the AK is simply one of the greatest combat proven weapons in the world. It was logically designed by someone who knew what he was doing and it excells in its role. If you go that route I'd be happy to point you in the direction of all the parts and info you need to get the most out of your rifle.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Thanks again for all of the information. One more question. I much prefer a scope to open sights, does either model (AK or AR) take better to optics? It looks like most of the AK's take side mounted scopes. Is there more of a problem holding zero with optics on either model?

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Both platforms respond well to optics. The AK stuff is cheap and durable if you stick to the Russian military models, but rails are available for the AK to allow it to accept anything you could put on an AR.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

What does MOA mean?

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I agree with what others have already said.

I like the AR15,AK 47,AK 74, SKS,HK91,FAL. All are
good weapons and have their place. And you can find
good quality as well as crappy quality examples of all
of them.

But once you buy a good one be sure to get some training,
lots of pratice AND plenty of magazines plus spare
parts.

Alot of people have weapons but not many really know
how to use them and get the most out of them.

I know a guy who has a wonderful AK, tons of ammo
and mags....and thinks that is allllll that he will ever
need for wtshtf.

He thinks that the rifle will "do the job" FOR him.

I'm not friends with this dipshit I just know him...I don't
hang with people who are that foolish...lol....

He also has a table saw and I would be willing to
bet that in his mind he is also a "professional" woodworker
(just cause he has the tools for it)....stupid stupid stupid.

Pick something that is known to be reliable, get plenty
of experiance with it and you will greatly increase the
possibility of surviving wtshtf.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

MOA= minute of angle. 1" at 100 yards. 2" at 200 yards. 3" at 300 yards, ect.
1/2 MOA means it will consistently shoot into a half inch group at 100 yards, or 1" at 200 yards, ect. 3/4 MOA means it'll put em in 3/4 inch at 100 yards, 1.5" at 200 yards...

CV

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Well, almost.

As to the original question, I'd get one that's made by Springfield Armory. :wink: :wink:

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

AR-10 questions can be answered on the AR-10 and MK14 forum www.ebrsopmods.com

Armalite and DPMS industry partners have a boad there too.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I see these discussion on many forums. "What is the best battle rifle?" and from there it goes to scope mounting as an afterthought.

Let us re-phrase the question.

Which is the best military type rifle with a scope mounted to it?

I keep coming back to the AR flattop platform. An AK with a scope sucks. AK's are simply not designed for scopes. Cover mount scopes are definitely out. The side rail by the time you mount a Russian adaptor and then rings you have added a pound and several pieces of hardware and attachment points between the reciever and scope. Not only that but the scope is a long distance from the mounting point so you can be assured that anytime you bump the scope you have lots of leverage against it and all the junk between it and the reciever. The only thing good about it is that the Russian mount comes with a lever so you can quickly discard the whole mess and rely on the iron sights that the AK was designed to be used with.

You can put a one piece aluminum Armalite scope mount on an AR and you have a very light and very durable scope mount that will stay zeroed. The one piece includes everything between reciever and scope. That just makes a whole lot more sense to me.

AK's and M14/M1a's are great rifles without scopes. Dollar for dollar probably better than AR's. But when you add a scope to the equation the opposite is true, IMO.

So now I'm debating whether to get an AR10 A4 or a 762x39 AR. Does anyone know about the latter? Can I put a 762x39 upper on an AR15 lower? Would the accuracy of this combination be a significant improvement over an AK? The AR10's all seem to be heavy as hell.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I own a M1A with a 'Smith Enterprises" mil spec three point forged mount and a IOR scope. It is heavy, so I normally just remove the scope from the mount. Granted it is a tack driver at 250 with iron sights and 3 MOA at 400 with the scope.

But as I creep up in age I have been considering the AK. I could off the M1A and buy 2 AK plus ammo. Anyone want to tempt me?

m

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I'm not familiar with it. Is it an afterthought contraption? The M1A is a heavy rifle and difficult to carry by any means other than a sling because it's fat. Being old and having spent many days in the mountains hunting elk, I know all too well about carrying rifles, constantly having to switch shoulders and from one hand to the other.

Are M1A trigger improvements as simple as AR?

If I have to fight over long periods of time in conditions similar to those of the Contras I'm probably dead anyway.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

The dust cover rails are not something I would mess with personally. The integrated Russian scopes on mounts work fine but I would not mess with the universal rails that use the sidemount, just get a Kobra or something. Those are not the only two options for mounting a scope rail on an AK though. Here are some better ones.

www.ultimak.com

www.scoutscopes.com

www.krebscustom.com

Two of the cooler AK rail systems do not appear to be available in the US. One makes use of an entirely new rear sight block that has rails milled directly in. The other is essentially a long rail bar that replaces the rear sight and is anchored to the tang. There are also systems from TDI and Brugger and Thommet.

http://dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FSX47

http://dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BT21428

With a 7.62x39 AK you aren't going to try to mount a high powered precision scope for extreme range shooting. Even with handloaded ammo that just isn't the weapon's forte. Optical sights and low power long eye relief scopes for ranges out to a couple hundred yards are more practical.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Actually, that kinda depends. Are you specifically talking about a scope, or optics in general (ie red dots)? You can effectively mount a wide variety of optics on an AK using a side rail or UltiMAK system. I know all kinds of folks that rave about their Kobra red dots. They certainly will improve your accuracy and particularly sight acquisition. However, an AK will never be an effective sniper or even marksman rifle, so I would concur that a true "scope" is kinda out of place IMO on an AK.

All that being said, IMO you better know your weapon very well if you plan on taking an AR in to a SHTF scenario. I don't want to sound like they are a piece of crap, I like them, but they do have tight tolerances and if not properly maintained and given plenty of attention, they will fail you. It is a weapon designed for a well-trained user. As far as the .308's go, hope ya got plenty of FRNs both when you purchase one and definitely if you plan on stocking up on ammo!.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

REV127,
Thanks for posting.

I have never tried any of those kinds of optics. I was thinking in terms of conventional scopes. Are those forward type optics much help for older eyes? Do they really stay zeroed?

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

My own eyes are young and sharp but in general terms it seems most people I know who have expressed concerns similar to yours have done well with them. If you just want to try out an optical sight or long eye relief scope NC Star and TacPoint make low cost products that are actually decent. As far as holding a zero, they're as good as your mounting system and scope. I use an UltiMak mount on my MAK-90, I'm sure there is a certain ammount of flex that goes on when the barrel really heats up but it isn't enough to make a difference at realistic ranges using these kinds of optics.

Red dot type sights will help you out in terms of faster target acquisition and even accuracy out the range you can effectively resolve images with your own eye. The long eye relief low powered scopes will help you make more accurate hits at the outer limits of your effective range but the trade off is they aren't going to be as good close in. I like the scout scope because I don't even really need sights to hit a target at short distances but enjoy the benefits at longer ranges.

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I am a firm believer in red dot and laser sights. Red dots on rifles are the best thing since honest money for fast targeting. Lasers on handguns are also great imho because you dont have to have a perfect sight picture.

Half of my firearms have these attachments and while not a fix all(you still have to be able to hit with iron sights) they are a definite step in the right direction.


NOOB

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

If only one rifle this is it in .308

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I've never tried a red dot sight. It's my understanding that they have no magnification.

Here is an interesting discussion about the M1A:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264020

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

Most of them do not. Some have a 1.5x or 2x magnification.

I have 2 red dots (one on one of my AK74's and the other as a spare), They work nicely on teh AK since those post sights suck.

I also have 2 reflex sights that are to die for. Unlike traditional red dots with the tube, it allows full vision and crazy quick target aquistition. I have one on a bushmaster AR (the only kind of AR I'd own, with a possible exception for the newer DPMS stuff) and one on a Keltec PLR16 .223 pistol.

I would NOT rely on any optics 100% and I'd make sure I still had iron sights on the weapon.

For The AK74 I use a russian side mount taht allows for bolt removal (barely) w/o taking off the optic and use of iron sights by looking under the mount. On the Bushmaster it's a carry handle mount, and once again i can use the iron sights w/o removing the scope. The PLR I can't use the iron sights at the same time, but the keltec iron sights suck... super suck to be precise. I need to buy another type of rear sight for it.

the reflex sights I have look like this one and also have 4 paterns:
http://www.marstar.ca/ac-optics/imag...3RSB-350px.jpg

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

If you are talking about AK OPTICS SYSTEMS, this guy is IT.

Here in the US, he's the ONLY Russian Factory authorized seller. He took the time to go over, get the training, blah, blah blah...

He has most everything in stock. And don't you believe that an AK with optics is NOT a viable battle rifle.

But it IS like any thing else. You don't go out and pay for a used VW and expect it to hold all the people a brand new AMG MB 600 will hold NOR will it perform like it.

So if you go out and buy a VEPR or Romanian AK that's been beat to death BEFORE you purchased it, you get just that. A piece of junk. The same could be said for ANY battle rifle.

However, if you go out and purchase a WELL MADE AK new or in like new condition and you mount the correct optics on it, it will function flawlessly for years. Just remember one thing about optics. None of them accept harsh treatment very well.

Anyway, enough of that. Here is the 'Tantal Automatic' site. Browse a while. The Kobra red dot is HOT.

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/

And don't you believe for one second that an AK is expensive. My AK AMD 65 (Hungarian) start at $500. Scroll down near the bottom.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/prog...ew.asp?CatId=2

Re: AR10 / AR15 Questions?
 

I have the Russian BP-02 side mount that tantal supposedly sells if he ever answers his emails. It's probably better than any of it's type but far from perfect. It's the lowest one out there that I could find and does allow bolt removal. The bottom half of it is made out of very heavy potmetal. If I compare that mounting system to the AR flattop, it sure makes it a lot easier to overlook some of the AR's shortcomings. I might try a reflex sight in place of the little 4x mildot I have on the AK now. I'm just aprehensive as to how suitable the reflex sights are to old eyes.

I've learned to be real finicky about how optics are mounted. Finding out a rifle has lost it's zero when I need it is disheartening. At least I'll be able to rely on iron sights in emergencies.